Thanks for this new section!!!!!!!

[troutfarm]

It is very sad that these people were forgotten long ago. Our society needs to change. I believe Kantrina came to expose things that as a collective society had been swept under the carpet for too long. In Denmark you can still work and receive some benefits from Welfare until you are totally on your feet. Here it is either you are receive welfare or you have a job if I am not mistaken. The way the system is now it does not really encourage people to work or they will lose their welfare income and benefits. I think Denmark has a better idea that we could use to help more people gap the bridge to employment. It really does not sound like there were enough jobs in some of the flood regions which makes it really hard to get any where in life.

trout

[troutfarm]

This is a must read written by people who were in New Orleans and were trying with no help from law enforcement to get the heck out. No one should have been treated this way.

trout

www.emsnetwork.org/artman/publish/article_18337.shtml

[aquarose]

Hey Trout,
I would vote for the Denmark change and I bet most would. Have a great day.

[troutfarm]

Yes our system needs fixing if it is going to really serve anyone. I do believe in giving people who need it a helping hand but also believe in helping them to get back on their own without taking everything away from them at once. Obviously something is not going right at the moment in this country. Not enough jobs in some places to go around.

trout

[guesterro]

I liked what Stephi's post said. I think certain folks in poverty choose that way of life. Before you think I am being cruel look around at those on food stamps and look at the physical state of thei bodies, and what they put in thei carts. Yeah, I know that sounds b*tchy, but I live in a very very poor town and I myslef have less than enough some months. But I also do not have a great deal of the same stuff in material possessions that many of my welfare leaches have. They have newer cars, cable and or sattelite and BOATS! believe that one-
anyways, not all are welfare recipients by choice but so many are. So many of those in new orleans did choose to be drug heads. and the looting started well before the storm hit, and that was a sad stae of affairs. The fact people are poor comes from poor choices too- not just being a victim of poor upbringing. My father had a brother, the two of them, raised identically. My dad went thru college with three little kids, taping the hole in the bottom of his shoes with duct tape. He put himself through college and made it out of the city, little by little. His brother, envious, mean, nasty and green, stayed in the city and cries about the unfairness of the rich and what they have that he does not have. What do they have? Fortitude to do and work 60-80 hours a week. I heard barney frank moaning that bill gates has 'all this money and his kids will inherit it but what did they do for it? Why shouldn't they pay tax on it too?'
why? because it was already taxed and gates earned it whether people agree with that or not- he earned it.
If I had a garden and I plowed it, planted it, tended it and watered it. Then when it flourished i shared freely with neighbors that had less, then i suddenly died, does the neighborhood have the right to take my garden from my kids, who merely watched me tend it? Does the government have such a right> No no no. If I do he work and want a better life for my kids and want to leave them all my money why shouldn't it be that way? Didn't my immigrant grandfather come here just so that he could give his sons a better life, and isn't that what my father worked for and bill gates worked for?
I sometimes think poverty is an angry state of envy and sometimes people need to take personal responsibilty. but thats just my thoughts on the matter.

[troutfarm]

Dear Mystery Guest are you projecting?

"His brother, envious, mean, nasty and green"

Seems you take after your uncle.

Does your dad have any more duct tape so we can tape over your

other faux pas "welfare leaches" shame on you!

trout ~ looking shocked

[guesterro]

Dear trout,
I was only expressing my opinion, which I am entitled to have. I do not expect that you will back down from your passionate view and neither should you expect that I will change my mind. I did not say everyone in poverty was a leach. If you read clearly you will say that. I was responding to a post above mine which was by a stephi someone. I agreed with the fact that many poverty people choose that state of being. Countless example exist were those who wanted 'a life' made one even though they lived in squallor.
You can not expect me to believe that every single person on welfare is in dire straights and needs a lift up- some people make a career out of it.
anyhow, the duct take comment you made was not necessary, nor the smack about my 'projecting'. I don't have envy of anyone. I am thrilled when people succeed. More power to them because I too will and can suceed at whatever I try.
So I suspect that if I share an opinion contrary to yours I get smashed. They were only my thoughts.

[Kimberanne]

I think that in the wake of seeing so many people suffering from the destruction of Katrina our senses have been awakened to the plight of others.

Guest, when I read what you wrote I had a sense of uncompromising judgement on people who were in a difficult situation. You are correct, there are people who COULD get out of poverty. The work would be very difficult and often requires a temperment, persistance, and drive that MANY people in this world do not have. Maybe even possibly myself. It is very easy to point the finger at others and make a blanket statement that they should do this or that when those are things that in reality, we wouldn't have the personal strength or knowledge to do so. It is so easy to sit on our mountain and decree that others should be like this or that.

I can't honestly say that if I had been born into a family on welfare, raised by a single mom with a 3rd grade education, not knowing when the next meal would be in front of me, surrounded by people who have been encultured to believe that it is normal and their lot in life to live this way.... could rise above all that I am taught, see, and know... to pull myself out of that. Can you, or anyone else honestly say that?

I was very blessed to be born into a family that values education. My parents were raised by educated people who weren't accustomed to getting anything from the government. My parents paid for my college and I didn't have to drop out of High School to feed younger sisters and brothers. I had a head start so to speak. Can I honestly say that I would have had the strength to go against all that I know had I not been born into that? No. Can I honestly say that had I been born to a 15 year old mom with a poor education and even poorer parenting skills, that I would have had the ability to look at my situation from the perspective of someone that was born to a 22 year old, college educated woman with a world of supports at her disposal? No, I can't.

I have friends who are the first in their family to go to college. Heck, I have friends who were the first to graduate from High School. One friend received nothing but ridicule by family when she pushed so hard to get out of HS and go to college. She was breaking the pattern and it was unheard of in their family.

Graduating from HS may not seem like a big deal to you or I. That isn't the reality for many, many of our fellow human beings. When a person is kept up until 3 in the morning because of the gun fire from rival gangs, feels the pain of malnutrition in their empty stomach from the moment they wake up to the moment they go to sleep, and has parents that can't read or write, graduating from HS would be the same as me climbing Mt Everest.

We look at the world through the glasses we are given. When we judge everyone by the world that we know, we miss the reality of it all. I figure that "there but by the grace of God go I". Am I an exceptional human because I was born to 2 college educated adults who had the resources to provide me with a warm home, healthy food, and educational support? No.


There is a "culture" of poverty in our society. It is sad, but it is real. Yes, some people choose to remain in those situations, but is their choice actually an educated one? Do they know what the other side is like? Do they know the rewards of knowing that your power bill is paid or you won't lose your car? No, I don't think they do.

Do you honestly think that someone would choose not to be able to feed or put clothes on their children if they knew that a choice was not some pipe dream?

I think that the US government does a huge disservice to people when they just hand them money. They are treating the symptom of their lifestyle and not the cause. Sadly, the dollar cost to actually cause real change is enormous and not one that most American taxpayers would want to face.

As a tax payer I am sickened when I see people who have an attitude that everyone owes them something. Like my step-dad used to say... "the world doesn't owe you a living. If you think it does, get over it!". I do feel that we should give only so much support and then provide what I call "reality therapy". If you are able to work and you don't...no money. BUT... we need to show them that they are able. If after that they choose not to, that really is their problem and not ours. That is also a karmic lesson for people.

As a Social Worker I see and work with a lot of people who have an entitlement attitude and we as American people are to blame in some ways. Yes, we do need to help people, but we often cross the line from helping into enabling people to stay where they are. We do need to practice some "tough love" at times, but we also have to temper that with compassion.

People are allowed to make bad choices, but when they do, they also should be allowed to face natural consequences of those choices. It sickens me to hear stories about Katrina victims who think that they DESERVE to have tons of things handed to them. As a society we should help those in need. It is the karmicly correct thing to do. We shouldn't feed their greed or their feelings of entitlement. It is their choice to not appreciate the help that is given. In that choice they create tons of negative karma that I want nothing to do with.

Life is neither black or white. It is all about balance, love, compassion, and taking responsibility.

Guest, you honestly can't believe that you could make such a strong statement with out getting a reaction from some one? Perhaps you didn't mean to come off as uncaring and judgemental, but I'm sure it struck many as being that way. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but others are entitled to react emotionally to such strong statements. It is just a fact. If you are willing to stand on a soap box and make bold statements, you should be able to expect that you may have a few barbs thrown at you. It is about choice and consequences.

I agree to an extent with many things you have said. I do believe that they could have been tempered with a little less judgement and a little more compassion. I was ranked 8th in the nation in Persuasive speaking in college and I know that you will convince people of your stand if you deliver your message in a way that doesn't threaten them or cause the hair on the back of their neck to stand up in some sort of primortial self defense reaction.

As the board owner I am requesting that anyone that responds to this thread and these posts remember to do so in a manner that respects others as well as a manner that reflects how they want to be seen by the world. Even if you don't agree with their opinion.

I will leave this open for now, but if it declines into nothing more than a mud slinging, name calling, insult flinging thread, I will lock it. That type of communication serves no purpose other than to create negative energy, hostility, and hate.

Is this an enfringement on your free speech? You bet it is. Remember however, this is my home and in my home we strive to treat others with kindness, compassion, and love. If some one can't work from that place they will be sent home and not allowed to play for awhile.

That said.... remember this... in all things... LOVE.

Namaste

[illia]

Well said, Kim! I am not commenting on anything here other than it is our home and I want the energy to remain positive! We don't have to agree in everything, and that's ok!! xo

[Kimberanne]

Exactly... we can agree to disagree, but do in in a manner that allows you to keep your integrity and is delivered in respect and love. Not always easy to do.

[guesterro]

Kimberanne, hang on! I am not questioning that people can and will react strongly to a statement they disagree with- I TOO react strongly as in the michael moore letterthat started it. I was responding emotionally to stephi's post which appeared semi against micheal moore's view. I was not in any way mudslinging. I expressed opinion in a strong, but not in a mudslinging way. Look though at the post from trout, suggesting I use more duct tape to tape up the mouths of welfare (something like that).
That was un called for. he/she can disagree and disagree strongly but that was kind of rude.
Free speech or not, this is a site run by you or whomever and laws/rules apply. I was adhering to them in 'sound off', but disagreeing.
We'll stand on disagreement because yes, I do think, coming from a very poor area of the country that some and notice I said SOME people choose to stay in poverty. I know it isn't easy but neither is life. Nothing is easy and if i want something bad enough, I am going to work to get it. Uncaring? No, not me but that's a judgement call based on an emotional response to my message. Thats ok. I give more than many and I seek to work to educate and boost anyone who wants to be motivated to get more and do better.
I think our welfare culture is a myth. It is brought on by government that seeks power and wants to keep the masses thinking this entity can help them. We need to do better for the poor and those in poverty by teaching them. Yep, be on welfare, we can pay daycare but the primary recipient should HAVE to go to a school, trade school, college, highschool etc. Then there will be an end to welfare eventually., The cycle of leaching will end. Give the poor a means to get up and do more. And also give manidory drug tests for those on welfare. If my taxes are paying for welfare I want to know the money is not going to feed a drug habit. Harsh? maybe but in the end those who really want out of a dismal situation will be helped. So I am not blaming only the poor, I am blaming a lousy system that teaches the poor that they are owed anything more than a boost up. The rest they have to do on their own.
What I may be mistakenly understanding here is that if I disagree, even done without mudslinging, I am unwelcome here. Ok then.
I can not see how anyone can learn if everyone agrees.
Nothing in my post suggests nastiness.
alrighty though. Nice site.
take care

[illia]

Hi there guest! I don't think Kim's reminder was directed specifically at any person....just a friendly reminder! Please don't anyone take offence here!!

This is a tricky section of the board! Postings can and will raise debate. I guess that is the purpose here?

We are a loving family and operate from the Light, and we can disagree and even have a small tiff here and there (man the energies right now)!

I bring this whole post up to the pink ray of light. Cover it, seal it, release it.

[Kimberanne]

Actually, as far as mudslinging goes.. I was just making a comment on something that could happen. I've seen it happen and don't want it to happen here.

Like I said, I agree with many, many of your points and I get disgusted at times with individuals who demand this or demand that. I work them on a daily basis. I also work with good people who work harder than most to get less than most would expect.

I disgree with there not being a poverty culture, but that is coming from a social work basis. My definition of "culture" may be different than others definition of it. I do agree with you that the government (who is basically US) is to blame for part of it. I tried to communicate that in my post.

It may sound apathetic, but there will never be a solution to this. Through out all of time there have been societal leaches... not saying that ALLLL people in poverty are leaches. Leaches come in many forms. We can do things to make it better, but it honestly won't go away until the world explodes or the sun burns out. We have to remember that WE are the system. The system isn't some obscure entity that none of us can have an impact on. The sad thing is that as individuals, we have little impact.

You are most welcome here. We can disagree. I just ask that we think about how we post things and what we say. I'm not saying that you are the only one who maybe mis-spoke. Not at all. I apologize that it came out that way.

Honestly, I am probably more conservative than most here when it comes to the government. I think it is easy to say how lousy the US government is when in reality, it doesn't matter who is in power. In my humble opinion, most politician suck and are only out for personal power. MOST, not all. If we all sat down and honestly thought about the enormous logistics of managing the government, the tax dollars, the demands of different segments, we wouldn't be surprised when things don't go smoothly.

I don't care for harsh and attacking opinions that are spoken by anyone. Be it Michael Moore or Rush Limbaugh. I think that they both breed hate and ill will. I prefer the style of Ghandi personally.

Hopefully if you read my post, you will see that I do agree with you that we should teach people and if they choose after that to be slugs, that is their own problem and not mine or yours. Sadly, that isn't reality in our society. We do people in lower socioeconomic conditions a HUGE disservice by treating them like they CAN'T help themselves.

I personally don't understand why people who make more money should pay a higher % in taxes. To me that is totally against the principles of the American economic system. To me it is actually more Socialist or even communist. I dont' see why people who work hard have to pay more. That doesn't make sense to me. It is punishing them for their work and/or their good fortune. It is actually the beginning of the entitlement way of thinking. Make the rich pay more because they made their money on the backs of the common man. Well, I disagree. If you work hard, you shouldn't have to pay a higher %. you will pay more, just not a disproportionate amount. Just my thoughts and I'm not even in that tax bracket.

Anyway.. the jist is... we can disagree with eachother, but comments should be make with respect.

[guesterro]

thank you kimberanne. i respect your postition and thank you for the opportunity to air my views.
you actually lifted my day in a postive way with your thoughtful words.
have a good one.

[Kimberanne]

You are welcome. Have a good one as well.